Holy Trinity: Relegation to Profane Use Update

With very little public attention, the Boston Archdiocese has undertaken the process of relegating to profane use Holy Trinity Church in Boston. Assuming Holy Trinity is relegated to profane use, the property will be sold. The future of the beautiful neo-gothic style 1877 church building and its potential demolition will likely be tied to large-scale redevelopment of the South End being driven by the City of Boston.

A short bulletin notice at the Cathedral of the Holy Cross says the following from the rector:

Holy Trinity Parish Church: After thought and consideration I have informed the Parish Council on May 9, 2012, that I will petition His Eminence, Sean Cardinal P. O’Malley, OFM, Cap. To begin the process of relegation of Holy Trinity Parish Church from sacred to profane use.

BCI wrote extensively about Holy Trinity in 2011, when the archdiocese listed the property for sale with a realtor but never went through a process of relegating the church to profane use.  See:

Boston Church Asks Vatican to Stop its Sale (March 15, 2011)

NEWSFLASH: Boston Archdiocese Pulls For-Sale Listing of Holy Trinity (March 18, 2011)

More Diocesan Deception (March 19, 2011)

Holy Trinity Trickery (March 31, 2011)

When the property was taken off the market, in 2011, note what the then-Chancellor communicated to former Holy Trinity parishioners:

The second step in this [relegation] process is the consultation of the Catholic faithful. At present, we are in the midst of this stage of the relegation consultation process for seven area churches. Holy Trinity was not included with this grouping because we had not yet obtained the needed information for the consultation. Cardinal O’Malley will be announcing a new series of consultations soon and this grouping will include Holy Trinity Church.

Please be assured that during the planned consultation period, you and all who wish to be heard will have ample opportunity to give your input to Cardinal O’Malley and to Father O’Leary, the pastor of Cathedral Parish, which welcomed the former parishioners of Holy Trinity. I hope that you will take advantage of this opportunity and provide thoughtful comments so that the Cardinal may make an informed and just decision as to the ultimate use of the church building.

Did we and others miss the announcement of the public consultation?  Did it even occur at all?

Here is what is in store for this area:

South End landscape getting a rapid makeover

Anchored by the dramatic rebuilding of the former Boston Herald property, the corridor of blocks between Harrison Avenue and Albany Street could soon host more than 1,000 new units of housing, dozens of new storefronts, improved roads, and new smaller roadways and sidewalks carved out of the large industrial blocks that dominate the area.

Boston Redevelopment Authority: Harrison-Albany Corridor Strategic Plan (South End)

Reader, “Servium” had this to say recently about the fate of Holy Trinity Church:

Its historic and patrimonial significance to the Church and the City of Boston at large should not be minimized. Currently, there is a move afoot by the Boston Redevelopment Authority [BRA] and developers to take the entire block. No longer a place of worship, the political apparatus of the City of Boston has imposed a stiff property tax on the property. The legalized extortion is now forcing the Archdiocese [RCAB]‘s hand to unload HTC into the hands of the BRA and interested developers, who have strong ties to both the City and the Pastoral Center. The potential ethical conflict of interest is astounding but continues to fester. Isn’t interesting that Peter Meade that formerly headed the Meade-Eisner Reconfiguration Review Committee for the Cardinal, now heads the BRA. Do you think any inside information has been shared with the City? Have properties been promised political allies before any transaction? One can only conjecture, given the track record exposed on this blog.

We excerpt from a previous post and reader submitted piece to give more details about Holy Trinity:

The beautiful neo-Gothic-style building located on Shawmut Avenue had a turreted white altar flanked by golden angels. Here you can see the now-empty tabernacle between them.

“The thought of what is planned for this Domus Dei (House of God) sickens me,” one concerned parishioner wrote to Boston Catholic Insider last year. “Two religious orders (the FSSP and the ICRSS), have previously expressed interest in maintaining the property and the Cardinal has showed no interest…A utilitarian understanding of ‘worship space’ seems to have been prevailed upon at least two generations of Catholics in Boston, reducing sacred architecture and the theology of the Domus Dei to a managed asset,” the parishioner said. “This has paved the way to massive church suppressions in Boston with little or no outcry from clergy or laity alike. Does anyone question the secular model of Church, currently peddled by the corporate wizards at the Pastoral Center?”

Holy Trinity was designed by noted architect Patrick Keeley. A massive 2,880-pipe organ dominates the loft; the church can seat 1,200.

At the highest point near the vaulted cathedral ceiling are images of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Six-foot high Stations of the Cross line the blue-and- gold walls. Above each station stands a tall hand-carved wooden statue of an apostle. These alternate with 30-foot-high stained-glass windows bearing images of Michael the Archangel and other saints.

Peering down from higher on the walls are frescoes of St. Ignatius Loyola, St. Francis Xavier and other canonized Jesuits. The Society of Jesus ran the parish from 1848 to 1961, when it was transferred to the Archdiocese.

Pictorial pages of salvation history here surrounded generations of worshippers, who could point to them as they showed their children real faces from the Communion of Saints.

Over the years, this ethnic German parish opened schools, an orphanage and a home for the elderly. In 1990 it was designated to host the celebration of the Roman-rite in the Archdiocese, and soon a thriving Latin Mass community grew.

The German-Americans and the Latin Mass group did not just cohabit the building; they bonded. Together the parish had five active choirs, including a Gregorian chant ensemble, and a contributing membership from 94 zip codes. It hosted an Oktoberfest and a Christian Arts Series that offered orchestral and choir music concerts free to the public.

In 2008 it was closed and its assets transferred to the Cathedral of the Holy Cross. BCI understands from knowledgeable sources that the structural condition of the building may not be good, but in the absence of seeing an independent engineering report, we cannot say unequivocally what condition the building is in today.

- – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - – - -

BCI will close with the words of former Vicar General Fr. Erikson, who told Catholic faithful how important it is to consider input from former parishioners before churches are relegated to profane use. He said in the Globe:

“Our buildings are important to us in the Catholic faith,” said the Rev. Richard M. Erikson, the archdiocese’s vicar general. “They’re places of high honor, where many of us have experienced first communions, marriages, the burial of loved ones. Church is like another home for us, so any time we consider a use other than the sacred, it’s a very serious matter, a very serious decision.”…

“To those skeptical” that their input will be considered, Erikson said, “I ask them to put their confidence in this process, which may be unprecedented, which is designed to be thorough, thoughtful and efficient, and which was developed with sincere intent.”

BCI hates to see any churches sold and/or demolished. Admittedly, BCI has a soft spot for older churches with stunningly beautiful architecture such as Holy Trinity. The relegation to profane use of Holy Trinity and its sale are no doubt a fait accompli.  Has a thorough, thoughtful process of consultation been followed for Holy Trinity?  If so, it has been a rather private one.  To what extent did the RCAB ignore or otherwise dismiss potential Catholic buyers of this building? Are there conflicts of interest in this situation that have not been addressed by key players recusing themselves?

Sadly, this is probably not the last church to be closed and sold off in Boston.  Following an open process, free from conflicts of interest, where the faithful can at least participate and be heard is very important.  Did that happen here, or did it not?  If not, why is it so difficult for this archdiocese to do what they say they will do?

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153 Responses to Holy Trinity: Relegation to Profane Use Update

  1. This shows that the archdiocese doesn’t care about traditional church architecture or Traditionalist Catholics in general. While I never went to Holy Trinity German Church, I believe it was the biggest mistake to close it and relegate it to profane use. Why couldn’t transfer the property over to the SSPX, FSSP, or ICRSP? At the Cathedral, the Latin Mass is demoted to the basement.

    In terms of architecture most church buildings built since the 1960′s don’t look like churches (instead they’re modernist halls). If the Cardinal had to commission an architect to design a new or replacement church building in the archdiocese, I would guarantee you that the likes of Duncan Stroik, Ethan Anthony, or Thomas Gordon Smith will not get the commission even if they place a bid.

    Pray for new leadership.

    • Devoted Catholic says:

      You are correct in many respects. However even more so why close a parish that can afford to stay open?

    • jbq2 says:

      “modernist halls” are the symbols of Christ in the market place. “Badges, we don’t need no stinkin’ badges”. The idea is to pick off these symbols of the old church and bring on the new. There are no priests and nuns in the offing. The laity is the new church. Pastoral associates are largely women in training to become pastors in the “new church”. Many of these so-called new churches do not have the Stations of the Cross”. That would remind the laity and the liberal hierarchy that Christ came to be crucified for our sins and not for the social revolution of Judas. Why do you think that he committed suicide once he realized what he had done?

  2. abcdefg says:

    Can this church be relocated to another location?

    • Since some people have moved their houses to other locations, I can’t see why not. But the new owner will have invest a lot of $$$ or it’s not going to work.

    • jbq2 says:

      That is not the issue. The issue is the “new church”. The faithful must be socially conditoned into acceptance of the new church which is merging with the state a la a modern version of Marxism which has been chloroformed by Teilhard de Chardin. I believe that you have the economics backward. The Archdiocese has gone to the government of the city of Boston and asked which properties that they need to maximize the redistribution of wealth and fair and equitable housing. This is just one more stage in the destruction of the stable public school system in Boston and the busing which destroyed it in order to change housing patterns. This is all Utopian changing of the landscape in order to equalize society. You see the tree. Others see the forest. The church is a “tree” and the archdiocese is the “forest”.

    • Latin Mass goer says:

      My understanding is that faithful from HT were made aware of the great interest of the Georgia parish in relocating the HT church — lock, stock and barrel — but the HT parishioners wished to exhaust their appeal options. The Georgia parish could not wait for the long process to play out, so they looked elsewhere after waiting almost two years.

      This was a shame because it seems the Trinity folks missed a good opportunity. The Buffalo parishioners were very involved in the Georgia parish project; they had a large role in the opening Mass in Georgia; and they continue to be in touch with the very happy Georgia Catholics. They were amazed to watch their beautiful church rise on the site. Modifications were made to keep to current code (disabled access, hazmats, etc.) but my understanding is that the church is quite true to its original construction.

      I have visited the Institute of Christ the King churches in Chicago, St Louis and Kansas City. While the group does oversee beautiful restorations, their shrines and basilicas are usually the sole regular location of the ’62 rite in their dioceses. Boston already has a regular parish location with the ’62 rite (Mary Immaculate of Lourdes Parish in Newton), and a handful of other parishes that provide a Mass in the ’62 rite under the Motu Proprio. The Institute is invited into dioceses that have no established ’62 rite, so it wouldn’t make much sense here.

      With Rome still in “discussions” with the SPX to lift their interdict, that seems an unlikely option as well.

  3. Devoted Catholic says:

    This is such a shame. This building is beautiful. And the problem Chris Whittle is that that parish should never have been taken away. The parish was financially sound. Even though they did not have many people they were active and were able to stand their ground financially. I could understand if they could not afford to keep the Church open. However this is not the case. Holy Trinity should be open again for worshipers and the parish should be restored if they can continue to support themselves.

  4. Stephen says:

    Could the church be moved?
    It has been moved by Modernists.
    It has been tossed on to the profane dust heap of history.
    It remains the only Catholic church I was ever in where the parishioners appeared comfortable sharing a coffee with the local downtrodden and homeless. It is the church I first attended The Latin Mass it was the early 1990′s. I was in my late 30′s and discovered…modernism and what these heretics were up to…
    and the beat goes on.

    • Marie says:

      Stephen,

      The beat must go on. That is reality. You were born at a time when the Catholic church came to conflict with itself over the then “present time”; think of those 60s-era times. You found in the 90s what so many lost in the 60s, a treasure for you. Follow your course, but leave others to theirs. Live your joy; you really do not sound joyous about your discovery and you should be and let others find or live in their’s; they will find their way as you did.

      • Stephen says:

        Marie,
        A few thoughts -
        “You found in the 90s what so many lost in the 60s, a treasure for you.”
        Make absolutely no mistake, this ‘treasure’ was NOT lost, it was stolen. It was a carefully orchestrated destruction of the Church by modernist heretics. Your plight is just another footnote. The Diocese is not letting Star of the Sea slip away like so many romantic grains of sand out of their hands. They are stealing it and selling it to pay their debts.

        for you..
        ..your course
        ..leave others to theirs
        your joy..
        you should..

        So to use your relativistic modernistic-speak I’ll give you the party line, OK?

        - I understand how for you the loss of SofTS is a great loss, and how in your course or faith walk it can be difficult indeed. All of us have crosses to bear you have yours and the diocese has theirs. It is with great hope that once again we pray you can find a worship space (gag) that brings you joy, and you should, for the god of balloons and butterflies wants you to feel all warm and fuzzy. Oh, Ya, make sure you shut the lights off and give us all the keys OK?-

        Marie, the head of the Diocese school system makes $325,000 per year. Get it? They are not stealing from the collection basket they are stealing from it and beating you senseless with it. For another reality check, drive to the sit-in church in Scituate
        and bring some joy with you, you’ll need it.

        Re: Joy
        Please consider the subject matter and venue in which we correspond. When the rights of the faithful are trampled by those called to be Shepard’s it is a serious matter. I’ve got much joy in life, thanks for your concern.

      • Marie says:

        Good morning Stephen.

        In response to 7/8/12, 10:21 p.m.

        The one problem with this mode of communication is the speed at which one must speak his mind and hope that it is received in the vein intended.

        I am older than you by enough years to have had to digest the 60′s, Catholic enough and faithful enough and revered enough those who delivered God’s word to follow. That there may have been ulterior motives and a carefully ochrestrated effort to destroy the Church never occurred to me. I had faith. I followed.

        The loss of Mary Star of the Sea Church and the Catholic church presence in this community is a great loss given the dynamics of this particular community. And, that is what I want given back to make this community whole again. It is not a cross I bear but rather a disgust I share with you and for exactly the same reasons. This church, as so many others, was stolen from the Catholic faithful. The Catholic faithful built it and the need for that Church in this place is as great today as it was when built. It is obvious that the keys to that worship space were in the wrong hands.

        I am so not about balloons, butterflies, warm, fuzzy, perhaps cockeyed optimist is more apt, with optimism being replaced by large doses of pessimism and cynicism at every turn. You are right, the shepard’s are not doing their job.

        I promise I will never speak to your joy again and I do understand what you found. It has always been there and always will be.

  5. Marie says:

    BCI, the word corrupt comes to mind, forgive me.

    “Our buildings are important to us in the Catholic faith,” said the Rev. Richard M. Erikson, the archdiocese’s vicar general. “They’re places of high honor, where many of us have experienced first communions, marriages, the burial of loved ones. Church is like another home for us, so any time we consider a use other than the sacred, it’s a very serious matter, a very serious decision.”…

    “To those skeptical” that their input will be considered, Erikson said, “I ask them to put their confidence in this process, which may be unprecedented, which is designed to be thorough, thoughtful and efficient, and which was developed with sincere intent.”

    Is this not a good time and a good place to ask all who are skeptical of the process, all who have had their church homes taken from them to come forward to this place and state your case and what is sincerely on your mind and ask for transparency and for the “book to be open” AND take advantage of THIS opportunity, offered to you by BCI and provide thoughtful and heartfelt and honest comments so that the Cardinal may make a just decision as to the ultimate use of all church buildings that have been taken from the Catholic faithful.

    My concerns remain with Mary Star of the Sea Church in Squantum and yours………….

  6. Stephen says:

    Marie,
    Thorough, thoughtful and efficient is not going to keep your church open. May I suggest a novena to St. Catherine of Siena.

  7. Hopeful says:

    Good Evening Devout Group:

    Agreed…..this is heartbreaking.

    Could it be that the monies collected are used to replenish the
    clergy retirement fund? I believe in my “heart of hearts” that
    it would cause pain for any bishop to watch this stunningly beautiful
    church be dismantled: I believe this action is rooted by necessity not desire. Sadly this neighborhood will suffer because there will
    be less meaningful history and Judeo-Christian influence.

    Anyway, please do not lose focus on a simultaneous challenge:

    The preservation of the Captain Crunch Cereal!!!!

    Truth be known, I never thought of Captain Crunch Cereal
    until reading this blog. However, the sad reality is that I cannot
    cruise through the breakfast aisle without laughing when I
    spot Capt Crunch ……on the bottom shelf….UGH!!!

    I have noticed a disturbing trend……Captain Crunch has been relegated to the bottom shelf in two “major” grocery stores. The generic substitute is shelved @ “eye level.”

    This spells a potential retail death for the Quaker Oats Captain Crunch.

    Need to verify?

    Ask Boston Archdiocese’s most generous donor who happens to be an advertising genius….. I believe we all know who he is!!!

    The problem with ignoring this “problem” is that the day the generic
    Capt. Crunch lacks competition; it will start tasting like Capt *%^%^$!!

    One solution: Call Quaker Oats in Chicago, and let them know
    you love Capt Crunch. Every person who reads this blog
    (love it or hate it) please call Quaker Oats and reassure them
    that healthy competition is necessary!!!

    • Stephen says:

      Toss your “heart of hearts” and return to Faith and Reason.

      “..this action is rooted by necessity not desire”

      The sale of Holy Trinity, one of the most historically significant in the diocese is done through the application of the will of those in charge. Any further explanation is once again modernist drivel.

      …and don’t call me Lovely

      • Capt Crunch says:

        Alas, it appears that the rumors of demise of our beloved Cap’n Crunch cereal are true. Quaker Oats has intentionally decided to ease the Cap’n Crunch brand name into retirement. See link below

        http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/03/07/capn-crunch-easing-into-retirement/

        Surely this tactful strategy to ease the good Cap’n into retirement has not been lost on the brilliant advertising genius.

        This, of course, begs the question is the fate of Cap’n Crunch cereal similar to the fate of the RCAB?

      • Hopeful says:

        Dear Stephen,

        Apologies. I sincerely believed one would not want
        to part with this church. I am willing to admit I could be
        wrong, I just hoped I was not.

        Also, don’t be so assuming….you do not sound lovely.

      • Hopeful says:

        Stephen,

        You are not a “Blog Cop”. No one put you in charge.
        Just ask nicely for changes/adjustments, and, they will
        be taken care of.

        BCI: Please pacify [edited by BCI] and remove “lovely.”
        Thanks

      • BCI would ask that all readers refrain from personal attacks or name-calling in their comment. We have limited time available to moderate the comments and need all readers to maintain civil discourse. As requested, we have removed the word, “lovely.”

      • Stephen says:

        Hopeful,
        “I sincerely believed one would not want
        to part with this church. ”

        If one would not want to part with it, one would not. Duh.

        Hope is a supernatural virtue, it is based in the reality of properly ordered created world and infused in us by grace alone. It is not rose colored glasses and delusion in the face of a known enemy bent on destruction.

    • CocoaPebbles says:

      HI CAPT.

      There are plenty at Walmart…..stock up!!

      Also, find out if retirement is limited to the USA.

      What about Mexico?

      Will the HQ in Illinois mail you some cartons?

      Also, ask HQ best method to freeze Capt Crunch. Did you
      know you can freeze chips, and, they taste exactly the same?

      Shhhhhhhhh…..don’t tell the snack czars!!

      • BCI would ask that readers keep comments focused on the topic at hand of this post–relegation to profane use of a Boston church. If you wish to discuss breakfast cereals, please take that discussion to another venue.

  8. Magdalene says:

    And so the destruction of the faith in Boston continues under the present regime. Ever read “The Faithful Departed”? This once strong Catholic stronghold has been decimated. My cousins in Boston have all lost the faith.

  9. marie elena saccoccio says:

    What a gorgeous church! Such potential in that property as a church in the midst of all that new development. Perhaps the Mormons will buy it.

  10. jbq2 says:

    It has been quite some time since the Jesuits modernized the local Jesuit university church on campus. It is not in Boston. Statues were seen as relics of sexism and were all taken down and stored in a closet in the basement. The Stations of the Cross were removed and destroyed as symbols of the Crucifixion and a reminder that sin exists in the modern world. It is all social justice and no sin unless it be sexism or racism. The gay agenda is right in the middle of the Jesuit 18 colleges and universities

    • Carolyn says:

      Just FYI the church of Saint Ignatius is an RCAB owned parish church located in Newton, just adjoining the BC campus. The parish is staffed by the Society of Jesus, but the parish has the same status as all others under RCAB. On the few occasions that I have attended funerals there, I have noticed that the upper church is pretty well scoured of sacred objects, statues, etc. The lower church does have a few items.

      Ironically, the really beautiful church is on the campus in St Marys Hall, the priests’ residence. Absolutely beautiful and offers daily Mass at noon, at least during the academic year.

  11. Capt Crunch says:

    Long Live Cap’n Horatio Magellan Crunch!

  12. Susan says:

    After reading some of the comments, I came to a conclusion that the Achdiocess is bent on distroying churches that have the symbols of Our Lords life, death and resurection. The one thing I noticed over the years, the churches that were sold off or distroyed always had a communion rail.

    • jbq2 says:

      Very observant on an issue that I overlooked. I thought that it was the statues. In reality, it is the Communion rail because it removes the element of the vestibule and Ark of the Covenant to the openness of the market place.

    • Capt Crunch says:

      Well, this video came out yesterday on CNS. After watching it we can all be hopeful that the pendulum will be moving back in the right direction.

  13. jwsr says:

    Just an FYI update on the Canonical situation at Holy Trinity. At present, there is no actual Decree of Relegation, just a note that it is coming (though no notice of when).

    There was a bit of odd timing as well; as you know, the Archdiocesan Real Estate office listed Holy Trinity for sale a year ago, which if taken as an actual listing (which it seemed to be), would have been a excommunicate-able offense, there being no Relegation. There was an appeal of the apparent decision to Relegate (you have to assume good faith), and it was accepted on an emergency basis by the Congregation of the Clergy. Right about the time the latest notice appeared in the Cathedral bulletin, Holy Trinity parishioners received word that they had “lost” that challenge. This does not mean what the other “losses” mean, though; it means that the Vatican accepted the Archdiocese’s claim that it had no plans to either sell or Relegate Holy Trinity, and therefore there was no basis to appeal the implied sale and relegation.

    In short, within days or weeks of formally convincing the Vatican that it had no intention of selling or Relegating Holy Trinity, the Archdiocese announced that it would in the near (?) future be Relegating and then selling Holy Trinity.

    • YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

      Fascinating and I know of the same scenario with another parish (appeal at Vatican deemed premature since the Archdiocese avers that no decision was made). Then Archdiocese tries to get its ducks in a row and go through the prescribed canonical steps and quickly they are “back on track.” And if no one appealed (though the appeals were deemed premature), the property would have been sold. Correct??

      The parishioners of Holy Trinity did not loose on appeal. It sounds like their appeal was dismissed as premature since there was no order of relegation from which to appeal. Ready, set, aim. They should refile asap after there is an order of relegation, whether written or not.

      This church is breathtaking. Is it on the National Register of Historic Places? Does it have any kind of protection at all? Hard to believe it has none since I see it listed as having received grant money through the federal government as preservation funds targeted to steeples.

      According to canon law, the burden is on the Archdiocese to prove “grave reasons” to support relegation to profane use. The trend recently has been to submit evidence that there are structural problems that are cost prohibitive. Parishioners should be on the qui vive for this and get their own experts to take a look.

      • Objective Observer says:

        The interior of houses of worship owned by a religion cannot be registered. Period. Only the elements viewable from a public way can be protected. Generally stained glass windows do not fall under registration protection. There is a MA SJC decision on this re Immaculate Conception in the South End (Jesuits).

        A Catholic church can only accept preservation money for a tiny list of projects (the steeples project allows weatherproofing assistance with no strings attached, e.g.) — otherwise the church accepting the funds must not decline any protected speech under the first amendment. So you could have NARAL insisting on holding talks there. Never going to happen, even in Boston.

        According to the Globe archives, RCAB used a restricted gift to have an assessment done of all RCAB properties in the city of Boston. Holy Trinity had a full engineering evaluation reported by SGH Engineering. RCAB made the summaries of these reports available in 2004. Unless the parish addressed the problems revealed then, the price tag on those repairs has only gone way up. I have no idea if copies of those reports were provided to Rome during the appeals.

        Holy Trinity is beautiful, no doubt. It really comes down to a lot of beautiful churches built with the blood, sweat and tears (not to mention sacrificial donations) of devout Catholics in the Archdiocese between 1880 and 1940, with no notion of how those buildings would be maintained. As health benefits, pensions, payroll and other costs rose, it became harder for pastors to ask parishioners for the great sums required to fix the roof, the downspouts, window casements, asbestos abatement, and other “invisible” elements of the building. And those costs, too, just kept rising.

        These facts offer little solace to those who see their beloved churches go out of use, but they should offer some understanding of why the churches cannot now be maintained by the ever-shrinking pool of the faithful.

      • jbq2 says:

        This is sociological and not economical in its entirety. Only churches with a certain profile are “hit”. As soon as you say Jesuits, you are talking the closing down of traditional churches.

      • just wondering says:

        jbq2

        Why?

      • Since you brought this up, the term “grave causes” (or “grave reasons”) to justify relegation to profane use bears some attention. Two things need to be agreed to by the Presbyteral Council when they recommend to the Cardinal that a church be relegated to profane use: that pastoral care of the faithful of the parish community will be properly provided, and that there are grave enough causes for the church should be relegated.

        The Code of Canon Law says the following about relegation to profane use:
        Can. 1222 �1: “If a church cannot be used in any way for divine worship and there is no possibility of repairing it, the diocesan bishop can relegate it to profane but not sordid use.”
        �2 . Where other grave causes suggest that a church no longer be used for divine worship, the diocesan bishop, after having heard the presbyteral council, can relegate it to profane but not sordid use, with the consent of those who legitimately claim rights for themselves in the church and provided that the good of souls suffers no detriment thereby.

        The “grave causes” used of late in several relegations (e.g. St. Joseph in Woburn, St Ann in Marlborough) include the following:
        The “grave causes” used of late in several relegations (e.g. St. Joseph in Woburn, St Ann in Marlborough) include the following:
        –The resources of the neighboring parish(es) and the Archdiocese are not able to sustain the building in good and usable condition
        –The small numbers of people attending the church are not able to support it
        –The Archdiocese is unable to provide the priestly resources that would be needed to care for this small community
        –The Archdiocese explored the possibility of keeping the building open but this is not possible due to insufficient funds

        Readers may or may not find these causes to be “grave” but these are examples of what the Boston Archdiocese is using as grave causes.

      • jbq2 says:

        In spy terms, it is called “misinformation”. The Vatican says one thing. The archdiocese of Boston says another. In more explicit terms, it is called the manipulation of the naive.

      • jwsr says:

        YGBK:
        Yes, there has been no loss on relegation, as there has been no relegation. Notice that it may be coming also apparently does not count, as to presume relegation is happening without a decree (which would have to include time and what the “grave reasons” are) is not allowed without extraordinary urgency.

        As far as grant money is concerned, Holy Trinity did in fact qualify for grant money, and secured $200,000 grant money to do historical restoration of the stained glass, which was turned down without explanation at the point the cheque was to be accepted and cashed, in 2002.

      • jbq2 says:

        Relegation in the English Premier Soccer League means that the bottom three teams are put in a lower league with three from that league to be promoted to take their place. The relegation of a church means that it will be shut down and closed.

      • hopeless says:

        Stupid question….

        Could it be that in 2002, the archdiocese was under so much
        pressure/confusion with the scandal unfolding that “at that moment” it seems like the best decision to make.

  14. Stephen says:

    Don’t you just love the ‘grave reason’ argument?

    A wonderful Vatican two term.
    Interpretation: Grave Reason –
    A term used to avoid dogmatic or definitive moral
    decisions as in; Gee, we could argue and reason
    about this until the grave. Grave reason; an intellectual
    and rhetorical modernist device; a combination of ad nauseum
    and reductio ad absurdum. Also known in Herpetology as
    wiggle room.

    • Hopeful says:

      Hi Stephen,

      I read last year that appx. 25% of the American population
      has German ancestry. Do you think if more people learned
      of this treasure, they might be able to pitch in, relocate it
      and save it? I am certain you read about the restoration
      of St. Patricks Cathedral in NYC and the app 250 tradesman
      being hired. Would there be any way to tie the two
      projects together given that this “unique talent” will be in this
      region? What if we emailed Bill O’Reilly or Greta Van Sustern?

      What do you think?

      • Stephen says:

        What do I think?
        Honestly, I think you are completely delusional.
        Relocate it? Have you seen it? It is made of Quincy granite
        and is as big as the Titanic. You’d have to email St. Michael the Archangel to save it.

        The modernist hate all that Holy Trinity represents.

        BTW I am astounded that it seems only those with a stated appreciation for the Latin Mass seem to grasp exactly what we are up against here in Boston. The cronyism, financial impropriety and various other shenanigans are all just symptoms. The disease is modernism, a true heresy.

        Just curious, does BCI concur that we are surrounded by true modernist heretics, some unwitting?

      • BCI has been writing about the problems of cronyism, financial impropriety, deception and other shenanigans in the Boston Archdiocese for two years, and we concur these are no doubt symptoms of some broader underlying “disease” or diseases. We have not specifically diagnosed the “disease.” But we agree that we are apparently surrounded by modernist heretics, some knowingly so, and some unwitting.

        To paraphrase what one Catholic writer has said, we believe that we still face a crisis of leadership, where many priests and bishops have come to view themselves as merely another “minister,” facilitating the “ministry” of other Catholics, rather than thinking of themselves as what the Church teaches they are — an icon, a living re-presentation of the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ. Even worse is when bishops think of themselves primarily as managers or as discussion-group moderators whose main task at hand is to keep everyone “in play.” If he doesn’t see himself as an icon of Christ, when pressures arise, the bishop will likely be pushed or tempted to act in ways that contradict the commitment he’s made to Christ and the Church. That has a ripple effect on other priests and the Catholic laity.

        As for relocation of Holy Trinity or St. Gerard’s in Buffalo, we read the article posted by “Angry Parish Council member.” It does say the church in Buffalo has NOT yet been moved–they have raised only about 20% of the $14M-$16M needed to relocate the church, so they have not yet moved forward.

      • YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

        http://www.movedbygrace.com/#!buy-a-brick

        Take a look; what a first glance may look “delusional,” turns out to be pretty realistic. Moving St. Gerard’s from Buffalo to Georgia happened and St. Gerard’s was a big limestone and marble church. Very beautiful also. How nice!! Buy a brick. I love it!!

      • hopeful says:

        Good Morning,

        No. I am not delusional. Aren’t most accomplishments rooted in desire? Many may have thought Jonas Salk was delusional investing untold hours before the success of the polio vaccine.

        Did you ever see the movie Lorenzo’s Oil?
        The heartbroken parents with no “respectable” training in
        biochemistry and medicine come the closest to a potential
        cure for their son?

        If someone “wants” Holy Trinity to be saved and relocated,
        and, can afford it and/or raise the funds: it will be saved and
        relocated.

        Keep us posted: It may proved to be a location many of us
        will prefer!!

      • hopeful says:

        With the “hope” of the world upon him, “Salk worked 16 ours a day, 7 days a week for years.” Passionate devotion intensified
        when his daughter (mother of 5) told him she had polio.
        Wikpedia: The Fight begins.

        Thank goodness when “he” went to school, boys that
        were brilliant in math & science were “allowed” to be
        brilliant in math and science.

      • hopeful says:

        To: Yougottabekidding

        Thank you.

        Also more background information in the USA Today
        2/4/2010 New York Church’s move to Georgia”

        “Preservation by relocation”?

  15. YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

    Objective Oobserver:

    Are you referring to this SJC opinion:

    http://iclrs.org/docs/Society%20of%20Jesus%20of%20New%20England%20v.%20Boston%20Landmarks%20Comm'n.pdf

    No one suggested that the interior of any church could be registered or controlled even if designated as a “landmark.”

    However, it appears that windows can receive preservation funds:

    Historic churches now eligible for federal preservation funds
    By Staff
    May 28, 2003

    WASHINGTON (BP)–The Bush administration has announced the reversal of a policy that has prevented historic buildings still used as places of worship from receiving federal preservation funds.

    Gale Norton, secretary of the Department of the Interior, disclosed the policy shift May 27 in announcing a $317,000 grant to help preserve Old North Church in Boston. The 280-year-old Episcopal church is known primarily in American history for its part in the start of the Revolutionary War. Two lanterns were hung from the church’s steeple on an April night in 1775, signaling to Paul Revere the advance of British troops upon Lexington and initiating his horseback ride to warn the colonial forces.

    The grant will help repair and restore Old North’s windows and make the building more accessible to the public.

    The grant reverses a policy formalized in 1995 by the Department of Justice that barred preservation funds for buildings still used for religious purposes.

    . . .

    The grant to Old North Church was made under the Save America’s Treasures Historic Preservation Fund, which was established in 1998 as a partnership between the Department of Interior’s National Park Service and the nonprofit National Trust of Historic Preservation.
    –30–

    Copyright (c) 2012 Southern Baptist Convention, Baptist Press
    901 Commerce Street
    Nashville, TN 37203
    Tel: 615.244.2355
    Fax: 615.782.8736
    email: bpress@sbc.net

  16. hopeful says:

    Questions we are afraid to ask……….

    Is this church in any way devalued b/c of its German Heritage?

    In reading a book: Tracing our German Roots by Leda Silver

    I never knew, and, was never taught the following:
    Why were we and our children never taught??

    *Some Germans left homeland for religious freedom

    *In the mid 1800′s the next surge of German immigration happened: They wanted to govern themselves.

    *The late 1800′s they wanted more political freedom, they were tired of being ruled by Monarchs and aristocrats.

    THEY WANTED DEMOCRACY

    *They loved their villages and simple country lives.

    * In the 1800′s not all Germans who arrived stayed here. Apppx
    1 in 8 returned to Europe. They could not find decent work.
    Some were so homesick and bewildered, they chose to cross the ocean “again” back home.

    *The cost—IMMENSE–it took all they had.

    * Disease spread quickly. Many Germans died of typhus, also known as Palatinate fever. Lice were so thick they had to be scraped off peoples bodies. Many died, and, with no place to bury
    the bodies they were thrown into the sea.

    THE JOURNEY WAS ESPECIALLY BRUTAL FOR CHILDREN.
    Emigrant Gottlieb Mittleberger wrote that 32 young children died on his ship. It was almost impossible for children aged 1-7 to live.

    The largest wave of German immigrants arrived in 1850-1900,
    These new “greenhorns” as they were called did not have it easy.
    Weary and sick after their voyage, they had to “PASS” a medical
    examination. If seriously ill, they were labeled “undesirable.”

    At this time, the US government did not want to support people who were criminals OR people who could not work or take care of themselves.

    PREJUDICE DURING WORLD WAR I…………

    Mobs threatened and ridiculed Germans. German books were removed from shelves in libraries.

    German composers we’re no longer used in marriage ceremonies.

    Some german Americans were tarred and feathered.

    WHEN THE UNITED STATES ENTERED THE WAR OF 1917,
    German Americans showed they were patriotic.
    THOUSANDS of them enlisted in the army. They fought valiantly against Germany and its allies, and MANY died.

    CONTRIBUTIONS TO AMERICAN SOCIETY:

    hamburgers, glee clubs, Easter eggs, gymnastics, Brooklyn Bridge, Conestoga Wagons, skyscrapers, county fairs, blue
    jeans (Levi Strauss), Christmas trees, kindergarten, hot dogs,
    symphony orchestras, Little Red Riding Hood,
    Ringling Brothers Circus, dumplings, beer, pretzels.

    Thomas Nast ( 1840-1902)
    At age 6 came to America from Germany. Nast thought up
    the donkey and elephant as symbols for the Democratic and Republican parties.

    Sweet Dreams Stephen, you are correct!!

  17. Mack says:

    It’s very sad to see this church get demolished. I only went there a few times, but was impressed by its beauty.

  18. Stephen says:

    Hopeful,
    - this ain’t Buffalo.
    - Salk had a very specific, literally quantifiable mission; to decrease the incidence of polio. Given the facts at hand in Boston today the idea of physically moving Holy Trinity seems at best, a bit silly at this point.

    “Aren’t most accomplishments rooted in desire?”

    A fascinating question. I’ll take a shot.
    No – as a Catholic layman what I bring to the table is sin, that’s it. My nature as a created being is fallen, I am driven by pride, vanity and sensuality. My desire or want or appetites without God will end in Hell. Modernism rejects these basic premises of the nature of Man because as they say – we are all good guys – (gag)
    Wait you say! I am not simply a beast! True. Dogma and tradition holds that the incarnate all powerful all loving God created us for a greater role. A way that we can transcend our true nature. God made us: (you ready?) To love him, to serve him and to know him in this world and to be with him in the next. (A seven year old can grasp this, and The Modernists think they know better, they are dogmatically wrong) All virtuous accomplishment are rooted in this. Certainly there are accidental good things that happen through hard work in this world with out a conscious mind of service to God, they happen through the mystery of God’s grace.

    Look at the photos above of Holy Trinity and consider its history. We need not be mystified at its destruction. Modernism is the disease, a return to true tradition (of which the Traditional Latin Mass is only one piece) is the vaccine.

    • Marie says:

      There is something not quite right with where this is going.

      My question is or, maybe, my statement:

      A Catholic church is a Catholic church whether traditional or modern.

      A Catholic mass is a Catholic mass whether Ordinary or Extraordinary.

      Those who practice the Catholic religion whether pre 60s era or post 60s era are Catholics.

      Those who found the Catholic rite that they wished to follow post or pre 60s era are no less Catholic, one than the other.

      Now, can we get on with the questions originally put forth by BCI? BUT, apply the answer to all church closings:

      “Has a thorough, thoughtful process of consultation been followed for Holy Trinity? If so, it has been a rather private one. To what extent did the RCAB ignore or otherwise dismiss potential Catholic buyers of this building? Are there conflicts of interest in this situation that have not been addressed by key players recusing themselves?

      Sadly, this is probably not the last church to be closed and sold off in Boston. Following an open process, free from conflicts of interest, where the faithful can at least participate and be heard is very important. Did that happen here, or did it not? If not, why is it so difficult for this archdiocese to do what they say they will do?”

      • Stephen says:

        Heresy happens.
        We should at least agree that yes, at some point we are no longer Catholic. You can’t swing a cat by the tail and not hit a ‘catholic’ in Boston who rejects many or most catholic dogma and has not attended (any) Mass in a decade or more. Nobody is trying to out-catholic anybody around here. We seek to ascend to truth, the Modernist reject that there is any absolute truth. There are enemies and heretics within the church, this is not new. What is new is that the faithful in misplaced charity fail to believe it. This is an essential concept in this whole diocese debacle, with out clarity on it the heretics win. You think closing quaint churches in a hardship? Think Ted Kennedy and 50,000,000 abortions.

        “Has a thorough, thoughtful process of consultation been followed for Holy Trinity?”

        The Vatican stepped in when holy Trinity was listed for sale by Sotheby’s!! There was an on-line listing complete with pictures.

        The modernist are in charge.

      • Marie says:

        Stephen, I agree that at some point we are no longer “Catholic” in the strictest terms, but there are those who really have no idea what you or I would be talking about. I believe at some point we are no longer Italian, French, Irish, it is dilution and dilution causes change leaving some of the best elements of its former perfection out of Its evolution

        The modernists may be in charge but they have had better than 50 years of practice having been, originally, pushed or cajoled or simply followed their “leader” into it. And, at a point a second and third generation came along of the same mentality, likewise into the priesthood. Dilution.

        Given your mentality and perspective, it is misplaced charity, but for some, it is all they have ever known. But, a Latin Mass will not change that mentality, only new leadership and faith in that leadership and being pushed, cajoled, or following that leadership will make the change you are looking for and for the pendulum (Captain Crunch’s words) to swing in the opposite direction and bring back what was and should it occur that the pendulum swings all the way back, neither you or I will see that end result. There is no on/off switch or wand that will make it happen.

        While we wait, however, I embrace any and all attempts to encourage the “unchurched”, the church lites, those who look at Holy Trinity merely as a work of art but come through the doors and absorb the beauty and take away the spirit of the church.
        Re-opening of churches, like Holy Trinity, like Mary Star of the Sea, like, like, like and adding churches in neighborhoods where there are none, will build toward and support what once was.

        I believe ALL priests should be expected to do priestly things especially to say mass and, if necessary, to travel to do so (it’s their job, their chosen profession, their commitment).

        I believe corruption has occurred, politics has replaced sanity and alliances formed that need to be questioned and exposed. But, given the present condition who will do the deed?

        Good morning Stephen.

    • hopeful says:

      Stephen,

      Thank you.

      Wouldn’t one Sunday Mass (for now), reverse the
      tax? Most non catholic religions have services much
      less frequently, and, maintain their non-profit (tax) status.

      Call an architect/engineer and get their thoughts.

      Ask the architect and engineer how they would accomplish
      a development (retail/housing) if they were “determined” to keep
      Holy Trinity and blend the new construction with the old.
      Are there “any” examples in the US or elsewhere?

      Maybe the people you think are against this will be for
      it, if you can provide an alternative plan.

      Maybe in 20 years they will be thanking you.

      Are you able to become a priest or deacon and work @
      Holy Trinity for free on Sundays?

      Make your case.

      • YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

        Hopeful, All good suggestions with which I agree. I too am hopeful that something can be done.

  19. Stephen says:

    Are you a plant?
    Holy Trinity is a dead as Cardinal Cushing.
    In 20 years we’ll be looking at Old Pictures and further and perhaps more deeply understand what these Modernist have in mind for dear Mother Church.
    Make my case for what?

    • hopeful says:

      If you wanted Holy Trinity church to remain as much as you “claim” you do………

      You would hire engineers & architects to get second opinions.
      call the Boston Archdiocese and set up a meeting
      to have someone look at the plans, then fly to Rome with the plans. You would become a priest or deacon and offer to donate your time for the rest of your life at that church.

      If you do not want to invest the time or money (or attempt
      to raise the money) fine. Is Holy Trinity dead, or is your
      motivation dead?

      • Save Holy Trinity says:

        Hopeful,

        It’s not in the power of the Committee to Preserve Holy Trinity to hire engineers and architects to get second opinions. We would like to, but the Archdiocese owns and controls access to the building. We could, theoretically, have a pledge drive, raise money, present the total to the Cardinal, and see what he says.

        If you want to help, find the Save Holy Trinity cause in Facebook causes and join.

  20. Stephen says:

    Hopeful,
    Guffaw
    I am pointing out the reality of the horse having left the barn a long long time ago. You are either baiting me or you are not grasping the subject matter.

    “call the Boston Archdiocese and set up a meeting
    to have someone look at the plans, then fly to Rome with the plans.”

    Get off the crack.

    I’d suggest you spend a day or two reviewing BCI archives then read a bit about the heresy of Modernism and see how it all pulls together.

    Do I want Holy Trinity to stay open?
    Sure, I’d love to be 17 again too.

  21. Save Holy Trinity says:

    First of all, welcome if you’ve joined via the link on Pewsitter.com

    Second, please pray both for the Cardinal and all involved in the effort to reopen Holy Trinity as a place of Catholic Worship.

    Third, Marie Elena Saccoccio says it best:
    “Such potential in that property as a church in the midst of all that new development.”

    I have seen that potential expressed. First, on a warm December morning in 2006, while I was washing the glass doors of the church with some parishioners during the semiannual cleaning. A twentysomething man and woman approached, and the man wanted to view the interior of the church, which was usually closed all week. We let him walk around; he was moved. It seems God may have been speaking to him. He was dismayed that the Archdiocese was planning to close this church.

    Second, in a Boston Globe column by Yvonne Abraham – no friend of the Catholic Church – on 11 June 2008. The title sums it up, “Losing a Space to Soar.” Commenting on a potential condo conversion as was later proposed in the real estate listing to sell Holy Trinity, “[W]alking through Holy Trinity’s doors will take your breath away. Light filters through huge, deeply hued, stained, etched, and painted glass windows. Enormous, hand-carved statues of the Twelve Apostles look down from the walls. Immense pillars hold up impossibly high, sky-blue gothic arches. . . . But sitting in Holy Trinity for an hour, imagining this beautiful place sectioned off for granite countertops and walk-in closets, you realize there are other casualties in this whole painful process.”

    Third, on closing day itself, in the dozen or so young adults – probably unchurched – from the neighborhood clustered in the choir loft watching the last Mass “because they always wanted to see the church.”

    Fourth, on the day of the public hearing before the Boston Zoning Commission, at which the Committee to Preserve Holy Trinity Church commented publicly on revisions to the zoning code for the South End of Boston in the area around Holy Trinity. Upon mention of Holy Trinity Church, one Zoning Commission member commented, “I grew up in the South End, and it’s a beautiful church.” After some lively discussion of the church, the Vice-Chairman of the Zoning Commission exclaimed, “Bless the church!” After the hearing, member of the consulting group that helped draw up the new zoning said that she would like to see Holy Trinity remain as a “spiritual center.”

    Now, there is potential in the neighborhood around Holy Trinity, which has been until now an afterthought of urban renewal. Because of the rezoning, this area is the “Economic Development Area North,” with enahanced zoning to promote “exciting new 18-hour uses within a pedestrian-friendly public realm.” Potential, because so many other churches, both Catholic and Protestant, have closed in the South End, and maybe the South Enders will rally around the idea of keeping this as a church. Potential, as new residents fill the area, and its new restaurants and shops make it attractive to visitors.

    Holy Trinity isn’t really for the German Americans and the Latin Mass attendees who used to worship there and have been accommodated elsewhere. It’s for the unchurched – as prayer in stone and catechism in stained glass, it’s poised for the New Evangelization and the Year of Faith. Remember, a religious order has already offered to fund repairs and supply clergy, so a reopened Holy Trinity would not be a drain on Archdiocesan resources. Prayer, creative thinking, and commitment are needed to restore Holy Trinity as a place of Catholic worship.

    • hopeful says:

      Thank you.

    • Marie says:

      And, I was about to write that things were getting “hopeless” and baiting seemed to be the plan for the day.

      And, along has come hope filled “Save Holy Trinity”………..with a good and positive message.

      I know a minister who invites all to his church, to meet, assemble, party, dance, discuss, teach because he feels that all of the unchurched will come to weekly or monthly gatherings and see there what they will never hear from his pulpit. He, too is hope filled.

      Marie

    • anonymous says:

      How about starting a tradition of selling and/or donating real
      Christmas trees @ Holy Trinity every December??
      With a brief story of this tradition? Perhaps offer to deliver
      and set up for single mothers, and elderly parishioners.

      How about offering Religious Christmas Plays for public school children? How about offering a “Christmas Party” for
      public school children?

      How about offering beautiful Christmas music for the
      community throughout the Christmas season: Including the three B’s. (Bach, Beethoven,& Brahms). Maybe share the
      story of young Brahms helping to support his struggling family.

      How about providing free music lessons and teaching children
      our beautiful religious music versus what they are inundated
      with on a daily basis?

      How about offering after school activities in the spring,
      Easter Egg Painting for school aged children?

      How about offering “Storytelling” so former and future
      catholics can learn from each other?

      How about preserving what is beautiful?

  22. Stephen says:

    Marie, hopeful and others,
    Modernism is not a pendulum it is a wrecking ball.
    The left/right, conservative /liberal, ordinary/extraordinary
    false dichotomies are simply another device used to break with
    tradition.

    Historically Heresy has always been a grand conspiracy.
    People in power manipulate things together without public knowledge and with impure motives. The modernists conspire.

    I am calling the posting from Save Holy Trinity agi-prop. Agitation and propaganda. If Holy Trinity opens at some point in the future as a “spiritual center for the un-churched” it will be due to a slick real estate move and it will likely be essentially a pagan worship space/ museum. After all “Holy Trinity isn’t really for the German Americans and the Latin Mass attendees” ?

    • YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

      Stephen,
      Do you have anything positive to suggest? You dismiss anyone who has a concrete suggestion. If people followed your beliefs, then they would just post here, complaining, and do nothing, since nothing can be done because it was already done.

      If there is a grand conspiracy and if all these closures are really being orchestrated by RE developers, then you are doing their bidding. Your spin- It is useless; do nothing- helps them greatly.

      Just saying . . .

      • jbq2 says:

        If you do some research through the Boston Globe, you will note negotiations between the archdiocese and the office of the mayor. The idea is to reform the city trhough the redistribution of wealth. Ethnic neighborhoods with their belief in the old church are a big problem. The idea then is to close parishes for economic development based on housing patterns and ethnic concentrations. The same type of negotiations showed up in Detroit with “close collaboration” between the mayor and archbishop. The old church and old churches are a symbol of racial divisiveness. These must be broken down, Marine Corps symbolism, and then rebuilt in the form of a “Gospel of the marketplace” and town hall churches.

      • YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

        jbq2, I don’t even doubt what you are saying but saying it alone is not so helpful; dismissing any kind of push back as useless gets us nowhere and actually assists the architects that you so despise. The push back is important, no matter the outcome.

      • Stephen says:

        I have never suggested that RE developers have orchestrated church closures. It is the Modernist heretics who conspire to destroy the church.

    • jbq2 says:

      Your remark of turning churches into museums struck a chord with me. In 1975, the cruiser on which I served did a state visit to Constanta, Romania in the Black Sea. I passed on visiting “museums” during the trip. Turns out that these museums were shut down Orthodox churches which had been used for stables during the Russian occupation.

    • Save Holy Trinity says:

      Stephen,

      Let me clarify the comment, “Holy Trinity isn’t really for the German Americans and the Latin Mass attendees.”

      After years of praying a novena with the intention “that we may always worship at Holy Trinity,” the Latin Mass community (while the indult restricting the availability of what is now called the Extraordinary Form was in effect) was moved to Mary Immaculate of Lourdes in Newton, in April 2007.

      The remaining Holy Trinity parishioners, including those who had attended the Extraordinary Form and switched to the Ordinary Form (English Mass, 1970 Missal) in order to help save the parish, continued the novena, but changed the petition to, “that Holy Trinity may always be a place of Catholic worship.” This petition continues weekly at the Cathedral, by the way.

      Many Boston-area Catholics, both priests and faithful, sometimes consider those who fight parish closure as only thinking, “not my church,” and as insensitive to the larger needs of the Archdiocese. Those fighting for Holy Trinity, however, ARE maintaining their faith and helping to build up the Archdiocese in various parishes, worshipping in both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms. We’re not saying, “not our church.” We ARE saying, “not CHRIST’s church,” following the motto etched into the glass entry doors, “the House of God and Gate of Heaven.”

      The Archdiocese can argue, as noted in canon law in an earlier post here, that the needs of the faithful who formerly worshipped at Holy Trinity have been accommodated. We argue that, while this may true, the love shown for Holy Trinity, and the ongoing dismay at its closure (84 comments and counting, not withstanding some about breakfast cereal) show that the sensus fidelium, both in Boston and even in the universal church, opposes this closure. We advocate for a new ministry, which while it may use some innovative techniques to reach the unchurched, is doctrinally orthodox and liturgically sound, or for reopening Holy Trinity as a shrine.

      • Stephen says:

        I am sorry I have a fundamental misunderstanding of what exactly you are talking about.

        “We advocate for a new ministry, which while it may use some innovative techniques to reach the unchurched, is doctrinally orthodox and liturgically sound”

        doctrinally-orthodox-innovative-techniques is an oxymoron.

        Closing Holy Trinity – the site of the first Christmas tree in the USA was a swift kick in the groin to OUR collective Catholic heritage.

        Don’t argue or dialogue with Modernists poke them in the eye with truth.

        I defend your right to novena round-the-clock. (Although traditionally a novena is a nine day period of prayer)

        I hold that the strategic minded Modernists are not beyond setting up a well informed apparent insider straw-man to protest valiantly against a foregone conclusion.

      • Marie says:

        Stephen, you have so much energy, but you are poking the wrong people in the eye.

        I do believe, we are all, essentially, on the same page but yours is getting dogeared from being overworked. We have the same goal but from different perspectives arrived at by our life experiences.

        I don’t know what you do outside of this blog to make things right again, but I am sincerely hoping that you are directing most of your energies to those who put Holy Trinity, Mary Star of the Sea, church, church, church “out of commission.

        Stop preaching to the choir and, if you are not already, start preaching to the bad guys. Although, maybe I should take that back because you certainly do provoke people to “talk”. So, I take it back………do preach to the choir, but preach to the bad guys more, please.

      • anonymous says:

        Marie,

        Will all due respect, we are not all on the same page:
        Stephen is at least five chapters ahead of most christian/catholics. The site of the first Christmas Tree in the United States of America was Holy Trinity? Wow!!!

        I probably possess 1/4 of Stephens IQ, but am going to give this a shot:

        If you allow a secular society to devour dearly held traditions, and, spit them out in pieces; who is to blame?

        Equally important is our religious Jewish friends traditions.
        Every September, during High Holy Days, I usually
        reach out and buy cards or phone call a dear friend.
        Often my efforts for my Jewish friends seemed more appreciated than efforts for my christian/catholic friends.

        Religious Traditions Matter

      • Marie says:

        Hello Anonymous (7/12/2012 10:10 a.m)

        Same page different route.

        Now, can we steal churches back and give them to their rightful owner?

  23. Marie says:

    Stephen, you speak to the world situation.

    Corrupt people in power manipulate.

    Yes, the “Save Holy Trinity” post seemed somewhat p.r.ish and, perhaps, staged, but more well thought out and factual; time spent to convey personal knowledge. Regardless, if the goal is to keep Holy Trinity where it is, then the hope would be that all who come take from it an awareness of this time in the Catholic church’s history and a promise that Holy Trinity and other churches will never be compromised again.

    Stephen, all things change, all things evolve, nothing remains the same. Are you the same person you were before the 90s and do you carry the same message today that you did then?

    Holy Trinity is not what it was, nor are you. You have strength, conviction, faith and have sized up well today’s reality. Use all of this to support those who feel as you do, to encourage people to move forward in spite of the crazinesss that is happening all around us.

    • Stephen says:

      Marie,
      Hebrews 13:8 from
      Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition Bible

      “Jesus Christ, yesterday, and to day; and the same for ever.”

      See not everything changes, not everything evolves.
      You have been duped.

      New International Version (©1984)
      “For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.”

      Yes, I am the same person, a one-time created being made in God’s image and likeness.
      Duped again.

      I’d suggest:
      http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2012-07-11

      You picked up on the tone and angle of Save Holy Trinity post. The earth knows no greater sophistication than the Modernists.
      There is a very very large picture here that is rocking the Church internationally. Greater minds than mine have suggested that Boston is ground zero in the culture of death and that the strategies and tactics of the enemies of the church within her, are frequently born and developed here.

      I will gladly feast on a large paranoid crow pie if and when Holy Trinity once again offers the Holy Sacrifice of the Alter. Mea Culpa after all is good for the soul.

      • Marie says:

        Yes, “Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today; and the same forever”.
        And, that is all in and out of this world that has not changed; the only thing.

        I would not ask that you feed on crow pie, only that you do all that you are able to do to be certain that Holy Trinity becomes what it was and that will be good for many souls, including yours.

      • anonymous says:

        Stephen,

        You have not been duped. You present yourself as
        an authentic Catholic and highly intelligent person.
        The problem seems to be you are in higher league than
        than the average nitwit.

    • jbq2 says:

      As Bill Clinton made so plain, you have to understand what the meaning of “is” is. The new social justice Gospel is well intended to bring people together in the market place. The best place to do this is in the newly minted architecture of the “town hall” parish church. All that you have to do is read Malachi Brendan Martin who was at the very core of the beginnings of the Modernist movement at Vatican II. John XXIII was the “architect”, strange choice of words, for the decomposition of the sacred into the profane. Remember that the good Pope John also looked on the message of Fatima as the “babbling of hysterical children”.

  24. Capt crunch says:

    @ Save Holy Trinity

    You seem to be very knowledgeable about the specifics of this situation.

    How do you feel about the questions posted by BCI in the second to last paragraph?

    “Has a thorough, thoughtful process of consultation been followed for Holy Trinity? If so, it has been a rather private one. To what extent did the RCAB ignore or otherwise dismiss potential Catholic buyers of this building? Are there conflicts of interest in this situation that have not been addressed by key players recusing themselves?”

    In addition, how could interested readers of BCI help your cause?

  25. wondering says:

    A societal consequence of our failure to teach and learn
    Religious History, European History, Military History, and
    (yes Stephen) Latin?

  26. considerthis says:

    Is Stephen the Rick Santelli in his own field of
    expertise? Does Stephen’s message get weighted down
    by intellectual depth and detailed doctrine? Rick Santelli’s
    message was brief, yet powerful. Obvioulsy, Rick Santelli
    is equipped with more financial knowledge than the average person, but when did the average person sit up and take notice?

  27. Jack O'Malley says:

    O’Malley der Modernist. O’Malley der Protestant. O’Malley der Verräter. Gott helfe uns!

    (translation of the non-obvious — O’Malley the traitor. God help us!)

    • anonymous says:

      He is not a traitor.

      He had nothing to do with many of the
      problems associated with media malpractice. While it would be wonderful if in the next generation of children were taught European & German History including & the stigma and shame many good hearted, hard working & patriotic American Germans have had to endure…..including the American Germans who
      fought, died and were injured during WWII.

      By the way, how many individuals from various organizations
      do you think reached out to him over the past 10 years
      and admitted their organizations had the same problems…
      if only too offer him some peace of mind?

      How many sat back and watched the media/legal feeding frenzy
      knowing it could have/should have been them?

      I do not recall any public statements by psychiatrists and attorneys stepping up to the plate and taking public ownership
      of any percentage of liability and/ or “mistakes.”

      Did we miss something?

      Now that all of the other people and problems are coming out of the woodwork, there will be more Catholics “willing” to defend
      the faith and their pastors which is wonderful.
      However, “timing” is everything. And, he did the job when
      no one else would. Period.

      • jbq2 says:

        AB Charles Chaput of French Canadian-American Indian ethnicity was a classmate of AB O’Malley. Both are OFM-Capuchins. One is conservative. The other is liberal. O’Malley made a big mistake in his “social justice” defense of Edw Kennedy instead of adhering to doctrine. My father was a German airman shot down over Germany with the U.S. AF. He really is Austrian. My mother was irish. You say that he “did the job when no one else would”. I say that he took advantage of turmoil to push his own liberal personal agenda. Malachi Martin in his writings insinuates that Boston was the center of all that was wrong with a liberal American church. O’Malley just happens to be her shepherd.

      • anonymous says:

        jbq2

        Thank you for sharing. I am sorry about your father, an
        unselfish hero. It is entirely possible that many people
        who were “liberal” over the past 30 years may reconsider evolving perspectives moving forward. It also was
        disturbing to learn about Disney cartoon WWII propaganda.
        Imagine the pain and humiliation for innocent ethnic children watching those, and, knowing their classmates were, too. And, to lose your father defending America during this
        is so heartbreaking it brings tears to my eyes.

        I should have not written “when no one else would.”
        Lets just say it would have been an unpopular assignment.

        Please give him credit where credit is due.

        Maybe if more people such as yourself shared your
        story, you would find there are many suffering in silence.

  28. Stephen says:

    Come on, I’ll bite,
    Could you tell us a bit more about –

    “We advocate for a new ministry, which while it may use some innovative techniques to reach the unchurched, is doctrinally orthodox and liturgically sound”

    Like Yoga?

    Modernist Snakes live in a wood pile of half truths, heretical dialogues and ambiguous non-answers. They are poisonous vipers. I have never suggest our Cardinal is consciously one of them, he is however clearly under their influence.

    A direct quote from Malechi Martin and Boston would be appreciated.

    • jbq2 says:

      Malachi Martin wrote “Hostage to the Devil” among others. He also wrote “Keys of His Blood”. In “Keys”, he talked about “Lucifer’s Lodge”. Father Martin wrote in the style of “faction” which meant that he used many euphemisms and allegories without mentioning anyone or anyplace specifically. For instance, it is assumed that when he wrote about the “cardinal of century city” he was talking about Mahoney. H. Kennedy was a collaborator and friend of Martin. He wrote “Lucifer’s Lodge” in which there are specific allegations and names in regard to Boston and which appear to be corroborated in conversations with Martin and which were then printed in the grave expose’ in the “Boston Globe”.

    • Save Holy Trinity says:

      No, Stephen: The kind of outreach I would like to see would be orthodox in doctrine and worship. Yoga would not qualify.

      While your concern about Holy Trinity is helpful, pulling the discussion into speculation about who might be modernist does not help the cause.

      • YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

        Ditto, exactly my point. Stephen, though well meaning and informed, you are doing the work of those you most despise, though I don’t think you see that. They do not need a spoiler when they have you naysaying and dismissing at every turn.

      • Stephen says:

        Why thank you noting that my concern is helpful. Now that we both feel better about ourselves, lets continue.

        And the cause is a ‘new ministry’ of some unknown description in order to bring back and re-open Holy Trinity?…

        So it is a hypothetical idea whose intention is to reverse an anticipated and planned multimillion dollar real estate deal coupled with a formal declaration that Holy Trinity is closed.
        I’m all for a miracle, but you’ll need to flesh it out a bit.

        I think one of the essential pieces of this Blog BCI from its inception was to expose the enemies of the Church who work with her. I think it is a refreshing step forward to call a heretic a heretic and the term Modernist is currently undergoing a very solid revival in Catholic circles worldwide.

        Look a what happened to The Boston Catholic Men’s conference.

      • Marie says:

        Steven (re:7/16/2012, 9:48 p.m.), please “flesh out” modernest; give it bones, make it a being.

        For you, in my opinion, it would be all right to reverse whatever the plan or plot for Holy Trinity Boston, Mary Star of the Sea Squantum, if there was a Latin Mass agenda. That would be your miracle and your ministry and the world would be perfect.

        We have become diluted and diverse. Same goal; different routes to achievement. But, that does not take away the foundation of our faith…yesterday, today, [the] same forever.

        You will not recognize a collaboration of the modern and the traditional. So, we remain at a crossroad of many years’ duration and accomplish little.

        Perhaps, BCI will identify and “flesh out” the “enemies” (no names, just a profile) of the Church so that we are on the same playing field avoiding the same pitfalls as we each move forward to achieve our stated goals. Perhaps some of the enemies will step aside and let us pass.

      • Capt Crunch says:

        Hi Marie,

        I think Stephen is onto something here, the US is now missionary territory. The Catholic Church in America is in crisis.

        I think this article sums things up appropriately

        http://wdtprs.com/blog/2012/07/united-states-of-america-mission-territory-wherein-fr-z-rants/

        As stated in the article above

        “Liturgical worship is the key and sine qua non for any rebuilding of our Catholic identity.

        As I wrote in my aforementioned tirade…

        I urge all priests and bishops who read this blog with any slight quaver of resonance or benevolence, to consider this with care:

        If you sense that something quite serious and important is going on right now, for the love of God rethink your approach to how you foster Holy Church’s proper public worship.”

        I’d like to see Cardinal O’Malley join Archbishop Charles Chaput and Cardinal Dolan and declare the Archdiocese of Boston mission territory also. Looking at the Mass attendance numbers and the forward looking plans for parish clusters it certainly appears that Boston is mission territory.

        Let’s call a spade a spade and develop a plan to have the Archdiocese of Boston look more like the Catholic Church and less like the Episcopal Church.

      • Marie says:

        7/17/2012, 6:12 p.m.

        Captain Crunch,

        “The rich modern West is mission country. Rich in material, at least for now, we are impoverished in spirit and in the spiritual.I urge all priests and bishops who read this blog with any slight quaver of resonance or benevolence, to consider this with care:”

        AND

        “If you sense that something quite serious and important is going on right now, for the love of God rethink your approach to how you foster Holy Church’s proper public worship.”

        Father Z’s blog is thought provoking, inspiring, heartfelt. BUT, who in the group he speaks to motivate to open their eyes will recognize that feeling one gets in the pit of their stomach when that sense of importance or urgency occurs? Gut feeling speaks, but not everyone listens which is quite evident today.

        How many steps backward to re-attch the mystery to the present state of the Catholic church? How many in the church today remember the traditions? How many who are new priests while taught the mystery have a true sense and present-day example of the “mystery”. While one would like to think it may, it does not occur by osmosis. Faith.

        In 1988-1989 our family enjoyed the company of a student from Spain. He was here a few short weeks and came home one day quite pensive and agitated. In fact, he was frustrated, which he explained in a sentence, “Here, you have too much choice.”

        At a time when the Catholic church should (I say this tongue in check because it is easy enough to say now) have been steadfast and remained on the long and narrow road, the Catholic church gave “choice”, changed course. And we in this rich country of endless choice took it and ran with it, made it our own, shaped the rules to fit our needs as individuals and here we are today.

        Perhaps you and Stephen can see, I cannot, where we can in an instant or the near future reverse what we have become; unless, of course, there was a manadate to immediately practice the Catholic religion as tradition dictated.

        But, would things change, would things be any different than they are today? Other than the fact that choice is removed and one now has to decide which road to take, once again.

        And, once again we are so far afield of topic and Holy Trinity.

        Have a good day.

      • Capt Crunch says:

        “Perhaps you and Stephen can see, I cannot, where we can in an instant or the near future reverse what we have become; unless, of course, there was a manadate to immediately practice the Catholic religion as tradition dictated.

        But, would things change, would things be any different than they are today? Other than the fact that choice is removed and one now has to decide which road to take, once again.”

        Well, if it’s going to happen it has to start somewhere, right? And to answer your question I’d say the answer is yes. Why, you may ask? because Pope Benedict said so

        http://lifeondoverbeach.wordpress.com/2012/04/09/benedict-xvi-the-church-will-become-small/

        We should understand where we are and where we are going which was stated quite clearly by Pope Benedict.

        “And so it seems certain to me that the Church is facing very hard times. The real crisis has scarcely begun. We will have to count on terrific upheavals. But I am equally certain about what will remain at the end: not the Church of the political cult, which is dead already, but the Church of faith.”

        God bless!

      • Marie says:

        Captain Crunch re July 18, 2012, 9:43 p.m.

        “Perhaps you and Stephen can see, I cannot, where we can in an instant or the near future reverse what we have become;……………………… UNLESS, OF COURSE, there was a manadate to immediately practice the Catholic religion as tradition dictated.”

        If it is going to happen it has to start somewhere and now is the time; we are in the midst of upheavel, if it becomes greater or lesser, will not matter, what remains will.

        Let Pope Benedict speak and lead the way.

        Faith……..

  29. anonymous says:

    http://www.foitimes.com

    Thank you, Senator Feingold (Wisconsin)

    Your efforts are appreciated
    Public sentiment has everything to do with everything.

    S.1356

  30. Marie says:

    Good morning.

    Unfortunately with celebraty comes the choice of acknowledging it and continuing with the task at hand or wallowing in it.

    NOW, can we continue with the task at hand: was the process thorough, thoughtful and efficient. Was the closing of any church building, any church done with any input beyond that of the hierarchy and the politically connected?

    “To those skeptical” that their input will be considered, Erikson said, “I ask them to put their confidence in this process, which may be unprecedented, which is designed to be thorough, thoughtful and efficient, and which was developed with sincere intent.”

    Well?

    • Save Holy Trinity says:

      No, Holy Trinity’s parishioners have never been consulted – even though many of them assist at the Cathedral weekly and have been invaluable to ministry there.

      • Marie says:

        Your reply points up a rather interesting perception of thorough and thoughtful and efficient “process”:

        A press release from the Archdiocese following the “consultation” of February-March 2011 would lead one to believe the 1.8 million Catholics of the Archdiocese were consulted and that only 300 “rendered an opinion couter to the Archdiocese”.

        My understanding is that only 450 responded. Whatever method was used, to get the consultation to the people, many obviously got lost in the mail.

    • Stephen says:

      Marie,
      Re; 7/17
      http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

      “…a Latin Mass agenda”. Absurd
      You are mixing politics with The Faith.

      The crux of the matter.
      http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=296
      Although I disagree with some of his conclusions.

      Holy Trinity is a case study on the “hermeneutic of rupture”.
      The heretics reject truth, there is no compromise with them.

      “…some of the enemies will step aside and let us pass.”
      No thanks I’d rather get stabbed in the heart, than in the back.

      I do hope all the Catholic churches remain open. Personally I think letting the grass grow tall and letting the roof cave in by neglect would be a fitting tribute to these modernists.

  31. Stephen says:

    Still scratching my head on this “new ministry” thing.

    The traditional corporal works of mercy are as follows:

    To feed the hungry;
    To give drink to the thirsty;
    To clothe the naked;
    To harbor the harbor-less;
    To visit the sick;
    To ransom the captive;
    To bury the dead.

    The spiritual works of mercy are:

    To instruct the ignorant;
    To counsel the doubtful;
    To admonish sinners;
    To bear wrongs patiently;
    To forgive offenses willingly;
    To comfort the afflicted;
    To pray for the living and the dead.

    It seems like this covers pretty much everything.

    What are these “innovative techniques” you mention?

    • jbq2 says:

      I guess that you didn’t get the one about political correctness and that the only sins in the New Church are racism and sexism. You might also do research on the fact that social justice is in and doctrine is out. With the removal of the tabernacle and the sanctuary, there is no longer any connection to Jadaism and the Ark of the Covenant. The way is being prepared for that one world religion and one world government written about by Malachi Martin.

  32. anonymous says:

    UM……except reverse racism?

  33. anonymous says:

    Liam & BCI:

    Remove post it you desire @ 11:23 am.

    I will research the truth elsewhere.

    What I am seeking is a parish community
    that will be a good fit. “Massachusetts” is of no particular priority, nor is Boston.

  34. hopeful says:

    Just Discovered the article in National Geographic (December 2011) Real Christmas Trees Save Water.

  35. Marie says:

    O.K., so

    NOW, can we continue with the task at hand: was the process thorough, thoughtful and efficient. Was the closing of any church building, any church in any location in the archdiocese done with any input beyond that of the hierarchy and the politically connected?

    A REMINDER: “To those skeptical” that their input will be considered, Erikson said, “I ask them to put their confidence in this process, which may be unprecedented, which is designed to be thorough, thoughtful and efficient, and which was developed with sincere intent.”

    Has a consensus been reached; is the original topic finished?

    BCI are you satisfied with where this has gone? Did you accomplish what you wished to accomplish?

  36. anonymous says:

    BCI–The request for removal was for 7/15 @ 11:23.

  37. hopeless says:

    BCI –I am with Marie. This subject matter strikes deep,
    hurtful feelings. Also, it is unfair to have this discussion under
    the title “Boston Catholic” because is sort of implies an association.
    While there may or not be sad outcomes, these problems have
    been in the making for decades, and, were not started by
    Boston RCAB. Maybe you should scrap this whole Holy Trinity
    Subject and all the comments, and, leave it for the pew sitter
    group.

    • jbq2 says:

      I believe that the Holy Trinity subject was very well seen and previewed. I suspect that the “spam” generated is intentional and a way of clogging up the BCI website. It is my belief that the enemies of BCI have resorted to an altogether different tactic. If you clog up the truth (the truth, you can’t handle the truth-Jack Nicholson in “A Few Good Men), then the message will be “muddled”. That’s the way it looks to me. Semper Fi.

    • Hopeless,

      BCI is a bit confused on two things.

      “This subject matter strikes deep, hurtful feelings.” Can you be more specific–do you mean the factual information that Holy Trinity is being relegated to profane use? BCI does not see a reason to not report that factual information and include the photos of the church building. Are we misunderstanding you?

      Also, we were asked to remove a comment from 7/15/2012 at 11:23am. We did so, but it sounds like you feel we missed it. Can you share the first few words of the post? We are not sure at this point of which one you want removed that we have missed.

  38. Stephen says:

    BCI,
    Could it be more obvious at this point that there is a group on the blog running interference for the Modernists?

    See Madonna’s latest stunt?
    Indeed.

  39. hopeful says:

    What if the Boston developers were willing to work around the architecture of the church?

    http://www.euroworlddesign.com

    Mission Statement (part of ):

    Our prayer is that God choreograph our efforts and direct our paths in all we say and do.

  40. Marie says:

    Yougottabekidding and Hopeful and Save Holy Trinity,

    Good news for St. Casmir and this under Bishop Lennon’s watch! I know, there is a story behind the story, but miracles do happen.

    Hopeful, Hopeless, too, and Save Holy Trinity maybe this will happen here.

    Bishop Lennon was not happy when I wrote to him asking/begging that he not close Mary Star of the Sea here in Squantum. I do believe that was 2002 or 2003. I suggested that he really must reconsider closing Mary Star of the Sea Church. Of course, my letter was, perhaps, not as reverend as he was used to receiving; not disrespectful, just exuberantly hopeful.

    Mary Star of the Sea Squantum is not a St. Casmir or a Holy Trinity, it remains today what it has always been, a neighborhood church; a neighborhood much like the neighborhoods that existed and grew in the early 1900s, but this neighborhood remains in tact today. An enviable situation to most, maybe, but not meaningful by the standard of Archdiocese of Boston, whatever that standard is.

    This is a small community of 1100 homes, 58 streets, totally grown out but never losing the neighborhood dynamic; it has just celebrated its 103rd consecutive 4th of July parade; one of the longest existant in the country and signficant in assessing the character of the community.Squantum is a remarkable place, presently incomplete, missing its Catholic church presence.

    Hopefully Mary Star of the Sea and Holy Trinity will be left in place and there will be left remaining space for whatever development the Archdiocese has in mind or has determined is more significant and important to our communities than its Catholic church presence.

    Marie

  41. Stephen says:

    July 17, 2012 at 7:24 am

    Marie,
    Re; 7/17
    http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10pasce.htm

    “…a Latin Mass agenda”. Absurd
    You are mixing politics with The Faith.

    The crux of the matter.
    http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/articles.cfm?id=296
    Although I disagree with some of his conclusions.

    Holy Trinity is a case study on the “hermeneutic of rupture”.
    The heretics reject truth, there is no compromise with them.

    “…some of the enemies will step aside and let us pass.”
    No thanks I’d rather get stabbed in the heart, than in the back.

    I do hope all the Catholic churches remain open. Personally I think letting the grass grow tall and letting the roof cave in by neglect would be a fitting tribute to these modernists.

    • jbq2 says:

      You miss the point. The church of the tabernacle and the sanctuary with parallels to the Ark of the Covenant has been replaced by the church of the marketplace in league with the devil. There is no devil and there is no sin. It is all about psychology and Sigmund the prophet and his son Telhard. Recently, a sermon from a deacon who preaches with impunity and stupidiy stated in a parable that a man named Moe died and went to the purlie gates. St. Peter refused him admittance because he did not believe in social justice and was not active in the movement. At the same Church, a sermon from a priest from India stated that Princess Diana was more of a hero than Mother Theresa in the effort to treat AIDS patients. Finally, the pastor said that there were only two commandments. They are love of God and love of neighbor. He forgot to mention that these two commandments of love are based on the Ten Commandments which a deacon now a priest made the congregation well aware of at another parish.

    • Marie says:

      Stephen,

      Regarding the word agenda, it, for me is not political. It has become my new descriptive word for most of what I encounter on any given day. Everyone has an “agenda”; some good, some not so, but everyone has an agenda, a personal reason for doing what they are doing, a personal desired end result.

      Thank you for the two sites you directed me to. I may never catch up with where you have been nor where you have arrived at. Someone said you were 5 pages ahead, I wonder, however, at the number of pages that preceded those.

      I have difficulty with the ease with which you classify or call all who are practicing their Catholic religion as they were taught and learned it as Modernists when they know no other Catholic religion, no other way. Although it may be impossible, there has got to be greater understanding and acceptance, but given your goal (agenda), I do not see how that is possible, not just for you, but for all traditionalists. I guess we will know the answer when the Pope states, “This is the way; follow me”.

      I hope Catholic churches remain open and re-open and that Mary Star of the Sea is among those to be re-opened and that those who let the grass grow and the roofs fall in and the concrete crumble will assume responsibility and make them new again by letting go and “giving” them to the people who built them. And, when the day comes, we will see what they become.

      • Stephen says:

        Marie,
        Great stuff.
        Check this.
        “…I hold with certainty and sincerely confess that FAITH IS NOT a blind sentiment of religion welling up from the depths of the subconscious under the impulse of the heart and the motion of a will trained to morality; but FAITH IS a genuine assent of the intellect to truth received by hearing from an external source.”

        This was part of the Oath instituted by Pius X in around 1912 (Saint and Pope) and dropped like a bad habit in around 1966 by stealth Modernists.

        All the ‘traditionalist’ I know, without exception are just trying to be Catholics. Many clearly recognize the errors brought about from a …blind sentiment of religion.

        If we follow the Pope things will work out.

        If you think about it; crumbling roofs and tall grass has really no bearing on The Faith. I recall going to Mass in Mexico with several hundred others in a church with no roof and an earthen floor. Did you know within 20 years of Our Lady of Guadeloupe’s appearance they built an estimated 20,000 churches in Mexico?

      • Marie says:

        Good morning Stephen.

        And, is it possible that modernists are, also, and without exception, trying to be Catholic and firmly believe, fathfully believe, that they are Catholic?

        I refer not to modernists of convenience (those with political “agendas” or those who conveniently took advantage of the modernist movement because it allowed them to not have to deal with the world of the 60′s or allowed them to follow the 60′s trend in lockstep), but those who learned their “Catholic” from the modernists,those who know no other “method” or way, if you will.

        I see blind faith as a rationalized intelligent decision. I see a solution only and when the Pope states, “This is the way; follow me”. I see then that there will be no sides to be taken; some will follow in faith and others will go, faithfully, also, in another direction. And the path and way will be clear.

        I have never thought the physical appearance of the edifice to be of importance, but of importance is that it exists. Churches, even if modified, should have been left standing for the purpose of worship. I feel those that are should remain. As a practical and economical matter it may be necessary to take buildings that no longer serve their useful and intended purposes which are part of a particular church property; rarely should it be the church.

        Actually,no, I did not know that they built 20,000 churches in Mexico then. No shortage of priests?

        Have a good day.

  42. Capt Crunch says:

    How apropo…

  43. hopeful says:

    “Entering cyberspace can be a sign of an authentic search for personal encounters with others, provided that attention is paid to avoiding dangers….

    Pope Benedict XVI See FaithDigital

    We Love It !!!!!

  44. Liam says:

    BCI

    The reference above is very very far afield of your topic, and is not going to a good place, shall we say….

    (Background: speaking as someone who is 50% Swabian American, I will note that Eastern Massachusetts traditionally has a very low representation of German Americans compared to most other major metro areas in the Northeast and Midwest. Rural Germans (which most German Catholics were) largely passed through New England en route to areas with much better farming or metropolises most closely connected to those areas.)

  45. anonymous says:

    Liam,

    I apologize I do not know what Swabian means. I have no
    desire to not going to a good place.

    I wanted to know the truth.

    Is it so far afield? Have you ever felt discrimination or
    feared it for those you love more than yourself?

  46. hopeful says:

    TO BCI:

    Great idea…..please remove post @ 11:25.

    Please take into consideration that public sentiment is extremely
    powerful. As Stephen said, “this ain’t Buffalo.”

    BCI seems to possess a laser like focus on certain issues
    (which is to be applauded), however, there are times
    when a multidimensional perspective is necessary to get
    a grasp on what may or may not be happening.

    BCI: You are living proof intelligence and passion
    are not for sale. Please, please refrain from
    “personal” attacks.

    Without personal attacks, you are the “A Team”.

  47. anonymous says:

    Liam,

    See Madonna’s latest stunt?

  48. It seems to BCI that the discussion of the topic of Holy Trinity and the church relegation to profane use is drifting a bit. We will have a new post on another topic shortly but in the meantime we ask that readers please stay to the main topic.

  49. Liam says:

    Swabia is the region of southwest Germany. Baden, Wuerttemberg, and western Bavaria. It’s a distinct region.

    My father’s family was discriminated against during World War I. And, growing up after World War II as a child, kids with German names were certainly teased (but then again, where I grew up, every ethnic group – including WASPs – were teased; it was open season). But it’s not credible to speak of anti-German discrimination in the US. It’s a fatuous argument.

  50. hopeful,
    We removed the comment from 11:25am. Assuming your comment is a compliment to BCI, we humbly accept! We think we keep away from personal attacks pretty not, do if not, please let us know when you feel we have gone too far.

  51. JJ says:

    Look at this week’s Cathedral bulletin.

    http://content.seekandfind.com/bulletins/04/0275/20120722B.pdf

    Looks like Holy Trinity has been Releagated to Profance Use by Cardinal O’Malley.

  52. anonymous says:

    Liam,

    Thank you.

    The last thing anyone would want is for “anyone”
    to be discriminated against for some attribute they have no control over. I am not in a powerful position to pick and
    choose anyone for anything, however, institutions that
    are given this privilege should be willing to share the numbers and methodology. In terms of “credible to speak”, I have heard
    people say hurtful things about some cultures and ethnicities
    and not others, based on false assumptions.

    The goal is to politely correct misassumptions without having any arguments.

    Liam–you sound far more educated with far more reasoning ability than the average person. You may be amazed at
    what people who watch 40 hrs/television per week think.

  53. hopeful says:

    Placed this in the wrong section:

    Can Boston developers work around the church?

    http://www.euroworlddesign.com

    Company Mission:

    Our prayer is that God Choreograph our efforts and direct our paths in all we say and do.

  54. YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

    Here is hoping that Holy Trinity is as successful as St. Casmir in the cleveland Diocese!!

    http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2012/07/st_casimir_resumes_worship_ser.html

  55. YOUGOTTABEKIDDING says:

    So sad and all of two sentences dedicated to it.

  56. Chris Whittle says:

    All the more reason why the Cardinal should be removed.

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